Why Do We Buy And Consume So Much More Than We Need? And How Can We Break The Harmful Urge?

Eduardo: [00:00:00] Today’s episode, we have Benjamin Casteillo. Benjamin is founder and director of New World Together. He’s an ex senior manager and expert consultant in systems and organizations now using his analytical skills to solve the existential risks humanity faces in the 21st century. Benjamin is fully dedicated to developing and sharing a human centered transdisciplinary approach to help catalyze a sustainable transition.

Thanks for joining us Benjamin 

Benjamin: Hi Eduardo. Thanks for having me. 

Eduardo: How do you get started in this path? How do you go from handling consulting projects in a capitalistic world and now ending up in a mission to shifting mindsets and behaviors globally?

Benjamin: I felt that I was kind of forced into the educational system. It wasn’t really my values. It was the values that I had to follow in order to get a diploma and to get a good job and follow [00:01:00] the requirements that society was asking me to have.

And very early in that process, I felt that something was wrong. Already as a teenager, I started to feel that the way we function is not sustainable or in other words, self-destructive. And then I started to connect it with reports of climate change or deforestation.

And as a young guy, I didn’t know what to do with this because I was asked to have good marks in school to get a job, to, to have a professional career. So I basically tried not to think about it. As a young adult, I wanted to travel the world. So I started to study international business because there was international needs and it felt like a good way to travel the world.

I entered the, corporate world and In that world I quickly realized that we were mainly focused on profits and growth, and I could see that we had very little care for the ecological or social consequences or for choices in these corporations.

I started to connect the dots between that and [00:02:00] an increasing number of reports pointing toward the mass extinction, climate change, growing inequalities. And so I started to realize that I was part of a major problem and that this gut feeling of humanities heading toward self-extinction was becoming much more tangible.

I still couldn’t put it into words at the time, but what I could feel was a lot of cognitive dissonance and discomfort. And so I remember swapping from states of feeling really depressed because I’m looking at the states of the world and states where I feel like I’m fine, but I’m in denial.

Basically, I’m just ignoring all these aspects and I’m focusing on my job and the money I’m making and the statues I’m having and everything that comes with it. And with the time that connective dissonance became more and more difficult to deal with. And so I had to make a choice either I was continuing on that pass continuing on my corporate career, which was really [00:03:00] rewarding in a way.

Or I was going to take my responsibility and do something about this trajectory that we had taken toward catastrophe. Doing the second was stepping into unknown territory. 

I was too disturbed at the time I went to a meditative retreat trying to find inner peace and basically the meditative retreat opened an entirely new dimension to me which was inner focus about mechanism and potentials that I had never known about before. And so I carried on that pass. It was a journey of realization peeling layers and layers of unconsciousness, and somewhere on the journey I came up to create a New World Together, which is dedicated to bring forward those human solutions to catalyze the sustainable transition.

Eduardo: Tell us a little bit about what you’re doing with New World Together.

Benjamin: So the idea of a New World Together is to do research education, using a transdisciplinary [00:04:00] approach and is really to catalyze a sustainable transition through the awakening and expansion of human consciousness. What I discover along the journey is that the sustainability crisis that we are facing is caused by human patterns and that these patterns are unconscious patterns. And if we want to change them, we first need to bring them to a level of awareness. And that’s one of the major aim of New World Together. Is to bring the collective patterns that are unsustainable and unconscious to the surface so that they can be acknowledged and recalibrated 

Eduardo: got understood.

Very good. Well, let’s deep dive into that, cause that’s super interesting subject and something the world needs to know. We hit the planetary overshoot day exactly six days ago, July 28th, I believe.

And that means we consumed all of the resources our planet has a [00:05:00] capacity to regenerate this year. So today and every day until the end of the year, we’ll be depleting the stock of natural capital at a rate that it will just not regenerate naturally. And you have dedicated your organization to finding the root causes of this problem.

And tell us a little bit about your findings. Let’s do a deep dive into those patterns you have found. 

Benjamin: Sure. So basically here we are speaking about the over exploitation of our planetary ecosystem. It’s logical result of the current dominant patterns of human beings, which is about competition for short term profits, unlimited accumulation of capital and groups.

So right now that’s how we function. That’s how our economic model function. It’s based on competition of all economic actors for growth basically. And so this cannot be sustainable on a finite planet. We should have realized that a long time ago, but we haven’t because [00:06:00] we have nurtured ungrounded, economic theories that are based on the belief that every resource is replaceable at will.

And that therefore we do not need to care about limits which is of course wrong. Why we are functioning this way? We have to understand that this has been a pattern of survival for our ancestors. The paradigm of our ancestors was a paradigm of scarcity. Basically the norm was to not have enough. And so in that paradigm they’ve learned to produce and accumulate always more.

And to decide that the more they were producing accumulating and consuming the better it was. And so we created an entire global economy based on that paradigm, based on these values an economy based on GDP growth.

And it was never designed to integrate our planetary limits. What happened is that we entered the Anthropocene, the era in which [00:07:00] humans dominate the surface of the globe and today have access to an exponential technological progress. And in this era, this pattern of survival is becoming increasingly obsolete and self-destructive. The problem is that this pattern is not something we do consciously. It’s something that is embedded in our unconscious. It’s automated within us. The dominant belief until now is that this is part of unchangeable human nature. What we found is that’s actually untrue.

It’s not part of unchangeable human nature. It’s primal mechanism of survival that have become predominant in the course of history, and that are deeply rooted within the collective unconscious. And what’s perpetuating this mechanism is basically belief systems, fears, and traumas that [00:08:00] are collective and intergenerational, and that belong to a bygone past.

The situation of scarcity that ancestor have faced was traumatic. There was experiences of extreme poverty, of famines, and that is a collective trauma. What the collective trauma of scarcity does as long as it is unresolved, it perpetrates a state of existential anxiety. In that case, the fear of not having enough and that fear of not having enough generate impulses to accumulate always more that are rationalized by the belief that to have more is necessarily better.

And that’s where functioning that is unconscious is absolutely not fit for a purpose in our time. And of course, very incompatible with the need to recognize and integrate planetary needs. But the problem is that we have an entire economic system and an entire society established on this primal surviror [00:09:00] instinct.

Eduardo: These behaviors that you’re describing, drive to neutralize the threats, need to accumulate resources, and the need to fit in socially.

These are the same characteristics of a chimpanzee colony, right? They’re the same behaviors. If this is so embedded in our nature, what leads you to believe that these are actually learned behaviors and not so deeply embedded that can’t be changed?

Benjamin: So, first of all, I noticed that there’s a cultural aspect to it. Many indigenous tribe, for example, don’t run on the need to have always more. They’ve learned to live in symbiosis by nature. And it’s based on their culture based on their value, based on their beliefs. So to say that this is innate to all human beings is already wrong. Now, what needs to be understood here is that the tribes that were best at dominating and controlling the environment, at accumulating resources, and at creating [00:10:00] social norms that conform individuals are the one who colonized the rest of the world. In that case, we’re speaking about my ancestor.

You know, they were mainly from Western Europe. And so it’s convenient for us to say that, oh, this is unchangeable human nature, because then we do not have to ask ourself question and basically ask ourself, what are we doing?

I see that some communities have learned to live in peace with one another. They are not embedded in rivalry for power. And some individuals have learned to self realize and express themselves as they are.

So those are not patterns that are unchangeable. They are simply patterns that stem out of unconscious mechanisms. I also can say out of my personal experiences, I was running on these patterns before and I couldn’t see any way to change them. Following my own personal journey of consciousness, awakening, and consciousness expansion,

I see that I can regain control of these patterns and recalibrate them. [00:11:00] Of course, it’s progressive. It’s not something that I do just as a mental will. It requires me to go inward and to notably process, the traumas, the fears, and the limiting beliefs, on which this mechanism sense are established.

I don’t see that these patterns are unchangeable. I simply see that we haven’t yet brought them to all level of awareness and therefore they have been impossible to change. 

Eduardo: Awareness is the beginning of the path, but then I found myself also in the same patterns that you described to me, where you’re probably aware of the problem, but suddenly you just decide to take the blue pill and just continue with the world and not worry about this thing. Hoping that somebody else takes care of it.

And then how do you cope with the actual intrinsic fear in society of scarcity? If I lose my job today, I may be on the streets tomorrow because the landlord may kick me out. That is a [00:12:00] fear that paralyzes a lot of people. It used to paralyze me when I had a day job and probably use as well when you were employed. Yeah, just the thought of stepping out of that comfort zone and going into the unbeaten path.

It’s frightening.

Benjamin: You mentioned rightly that the first step is being conscious and not only of the problem outside of us, but the root cause inside of us. Because otherwise we are only able to do symptom treatment, then for me starts the journey of integration. The journey of integration is exactly what you’re describing. It’s about healing those traumas, releasing those fears, and deconstructing these limiting beliefs.

If we don’t go through the journey of integration, well, we have awareness, we have consciousness, but we are not really able to act accordingly. We live in disalignment, because we are not able to embody it. So the journey of integration is key and part of the journey of integration is to release this fear.

I would say This requires discernment because it’s [00:13:00] not just, oh, I’m not gonna feel scarcity, so I’m not gonna care about my bills and things like this. No, because society still is established on scarcity. We have to be really aware of what are the fears that we can let go in order to untap our ability to embody change and the fears that we need to keep because they are structuring, it takes experience.

I don’t have a miracle solution and it’s personal for each and everyone. We are all in different situations.

Once you are able to embody this new consciousness and the change that is needed I believe that opportunities will come. Society is in the process of realizing that it has taken a path toward self-destruction.

And it’s also in the process of realizing that technology won’t save us. Technological solutions won’t be sufficient to achieve sustainable transition. We are starting to realize it collectively. So I believe that in a relatively short [00:14:00] future, the type of initiative that I am driving will be recognized and valued by society, which means that it will be much easier to get financially supported so that we can live out of the contribution that we are bringing to our society.

Eduardo: So yeah, you’re suggesting to address the inner fear of scarcity with some sort of safety net. The indigenous communities that you described, I have a personal experience with in Africa, they live in tribes. There’s many people, many parents of the children, so that the children never actually lose their parents. In one interview someone ask yeah, are you afraid if your father’s not here one day. I cannot lose 20 dads, basically was the answer. In our modern society basically, the family’s isolated. And so the insurances you need to drive that sense of safety, the bar is a lot higher. So you need a lot of savings, you to think about the sort of insurance products, so that in case you become disabled or anything, I mean, there’s just a lot to build and it takes years [00:15:00] of enslavement to get that level of abundance and say, okay, I have enough, now I can take the next step and I can actually act on my awareness. Is there, is there any alternative to act sooner? 

Benjamin: I think it’s it’s hard to define a rule that fits all, but I think you mentioned one of the keys to know when we have enough and then to start reorienting resources toward the change that we need to become a sustainable species.

For me, the key is through inner work. It’s to not only be focused on the outside, but to also be focused on the inside. And if that fear is not released, then we are stuck in patterns of accumulation. We are seeing a pattern of addiction. Addiction to have always more.

These patterns are actually resulting in the overall exploitation of our ecosystem and the destruction of our future.

 What do we see behind an addiction is an existential anxiety and an [00:16:00] unresolved trauma. We are basically trying to compensate on the outside, what we are not having on the inside.

This feeling of fulfillment, this feeling of peace that can make us feel like we have enough.

Eduardo: What makes some people more open to this first type of awareness? Is there certain characteristics? For instance, it’s very common that this concept or state of enlightenment doesn’t ever exit someone’s mind once they have tasted a little bit of it. Second point is in the systems thinking primer Donella Meadows makes a hierarchy of levers to change the system. And the highest above all the other ones is the transcending paradigms. But it’s really super hard to do. So how do you go about unpacking these findings that you’re getting to and make them accessible? 

Benjamin: That’s still a question I’m working on responding to, but I can give you elements.

I think first it’s [00:17:00] really key to vulgarize. I hope I’m doing it well enough because what I’m sharing with you is a vulgarization of very complex notions which involve advanced psychology, sociology, anthropology, history. And so I think the key is to vulgarize it, to make it accessible.

Also to show the advantages of looking at these parts of ourselves that we have denied, this part of reality that we have escaped until now. I think right now, If I look at environmental movement or people who are caring about the sustainability crisis, very often the tone is very catastrophic.

To me, when I look at the inner aspects of the crisis, I am much more hopeful and faithful about our collective ability to overcome this challenge, but to do so we need the courage to face [00:18:00] ourselves and the parts of ourselves that we have repressed until know.

Eduardo: This is a question of leadership also. Leaders have a huge role in adopting this kind of awareness first. Because others will follow. But leaders are in a way, the most trapped beings because they’re subject to the results GDP or growth or whatever, although they have the leadership and the influence over others.

Is there a point of intervention that you have identified perhaps?

Benjamin: At some point we need a change of leadership.

Because as long as we have leaders who are focused on how fast is growing their economy and how much social status they have, then we won’t have a shift of paradigm. Now, if we want a change of leadership collectively, we need to embrace new values. The leaders that we elect are based on our collective values, they are the reflection of our collective values.

So unless we change collectively our values, then we won’t have new leadership. [00:19:00] How do we change collectively our values? Well, we start at the individual level. We start to integrate and embody new values so that they become accessible to others. And so that more start to embrace them as well. That doesn’t mean that that way is a guarantee of success. But what is sure is that if no one takes that way then we have a guarantee of failure. I think the leadership right now is also about the courage to embrace and embody these values, even if they are not shared by the vast majority of people around us and by our society. And so that means stepping out of the norm and follow what we know is right and needed for the human species. 

Eduardo: It makes me think of something that I, I find very frightening. We have all this new wave of clean tech entrepreneurs and the green economy and all these things. A lot of these [00:20:00] new companies claiming to be doing something great are built on the same paradigm of infinite growth.

I’ll take the example of Tesla okay. And certainly moving to electric vehicles is a step in the right direction. You could argue but it’s still build on the same paradigm of accumulation, same paradigm of exploitation.

It’s not really a shift in the system in any significant way. We have clear examples of systems blockchain, you have web 3.0 that are truly built on a new set of values and operating in a new model. What can we do to get these new values embedded in business models? 

Benjamin: One of the main reasons why we are not coming with the right solutions is that we haven’t yet defined the problem properly today. Most people believe that the problem we are facing is climate change. It’s as if someone is suffering from a fever and we’re like, okay, well, there’s a body temperature increase so we’re just gonna get an ice bath [00:21:00] and everything will be fine. So we haven’t defined the real problem. Climate change is just a symptom of the problem. The problem is with the pattern of competition for unlimited accumulation of resources. And so this is an effort we have to do in communication to bring awareness on what actually is the problem and to differentiate it from what is the symptom of the problem among others.

 There are other factors of unsustainability, such as growing inequalities, constantly increasing financial depths out of control, inflation, geopolitical tensions, cultural norms based on consumerism, cetera, et cetera. 

 As long as we poorly define the problem, we can’t expect to come up with realistic solutions. 

Eduardo: Defining the problem is always 95% of the path to the solution. 

You have mentioned a couple of concepts that I was trying to find here. If you could define it for [00:22:00] our audience, please.

You mentioned transdisciplinary and transpersonal. What does those mean? 

Benjamin: Transdisciplinary means you combine different subject different disciplines that are relevant to address a problem in order to extract a new knowledge that is specifically designed to resolve that problem.

Transpersonal means that you would take in consideration the self and the interrelation between the self and everything else around.

So we used to believe that we were all separated and living in a mechanical universe that doesn’t make sense. But what we are learning now through quantum physics is that everything is interdependent and interrelated in our universe.

There’s not one element fundamentally separated from the other. We cannot understand or resolve one problem. If [00:23:00] we don’t understand its interrelation with everything else. 

Eduardo: Self-realization is hard enough. So although certain states of peace and love tend to be contagious, one state of mind really is influencing the surroundings.

 Is this practically how you go from one to the many? Is this a process of osmosis in a way? 

Benjamin: Every realization that humanity had went through this process. At first, people were believing the planet was flat.

And then we had individuals that realized that it was actually a globe. Then little by little, this realization became more and more common. Society change starts with individual change. And vice versa, they are interrelated with one another.

Where we often are trapped is that we would like something instant and guaranteed. That’s not going to work. what we can only do is make the change we want to see in the world, to integrate an embody it and then help others to do so. The rest is not up to us.[00:24:00] 

It’s a process that takes time in which we need to accept. But I think today the crisis of sustainability that we are facing as a species or as a civilization is inviting us to it. It’s simply a, collective state of denial and escapism of the situation.

Eduardo: I wanna transition to another concept that you mentioned in your research. You talk about the regenerative transition cycle as a key to transition into a conscious symbiotic thriving species.

 What is the regenerative transition cycle and perhaps walk us through it?

Benjamin: Different people have different way to, to describe what’s originated transition. I will explain how I see it related to ourselves. What it means for us and for what’s happening inside of us.

A collective regenerative transition will mean that we, as a species, have achieved the needed level of collective intelligence, of collective consciousness in order [00:25:00] to start that process on the planetary scale. It means that we are working on treating the collective trauma that we have not treated yet.

We are helping ourself and one another release the collective fear that are not serving us anymore. To deconstruct beliefs that belong to a bygone past that are not compatible with our reality. There’s a lot of therapy going on all over the surface of the globe because we have acknowledged that we were not functioning the way we were supposed to function.

We were functioning in a traumatic stress. 

The human species has been through centuries of war, of invasions, of genocides, centuries of ,famines of severe deprivations, colonizations, slavery, et cetera, et cetera.

These have been experienced by the entire human species, to some extent. These traumatic experiences, they don’t go [00:26:00] away like that. They are embedded in our beliefs.

They’re embedded in our culture and our society, and they will perpetuate patterns associated with the trauma that we’ve experienced. Now. This is not a curse for the human species. It’s a blessing because what we know is that when we heal our trauma, we go through a process of post-traumatic growth. And what does post-traumatic growth generate is an expansion of human consciousness.

We expand our level of self-awareness. We expand our level of knowledge. We expand our level of empathy. We expand our level of discernment. We expand our level of creativity. And so this expansion of consciousness is exactly what is needed at a collective level to untap the potential for sustainable transition. A key part of the sustainable transition is that regenerative transition.

Eduardo: The next concept you have also super [00:27:00] interesting. You’re advocating for a different characterization of our species from Homo Sapiens, to Homo Conscious. As great philosopher Immanuel Kant describe the subject, we’re destined to see the world from a selfish perspective, just because we really see the world in Technicolor from our own perspective, and we cannot possibly see it in any other way. So we will never truly be able to see the tree for what it is fundamentally because you’re not the tree. And your idea of the tree is not the tree either.

 How can you possibly expand into Homo Conscious when this idea of separateness seems to be part of who we are?

Benjamin: So first of all, I would just rephrase what you just said.

I don’t think we see the world from a necessarily selfish perspective, but we see it from a subjective perspective. My way of seeing the world is very unique and it will never be your way. Basically Your perspective of [00:28:00] reality are all subjective, relative, and limited. Reality is very multidimensional.

I will consider it infinite, absolute and objective. So our perspective are not supposed to be put in confrontation with one another. They are supposed to be complimentary to one another. Becoming a Homo Conscious is recognizing our subjectivity, our limitation, our relativity in a multidimensional, infinite, absolute, objective reality.

Homo Sapiens lacks self-awareness. He thinks, but he doesn’t really know who he is.

He’s mainly driven by unconscious patterns. He’s not aware that he’s driven by unconscious patterns.

He’s just following the norms and trying to survive and make the best out of it. Homo Conscious on the other way is aware of his self is aware of his unconscious patterns. He’s able to recalibrate [00:29:00] them when necessary. He’s aware of his creative power, which means that he can deconstruct and upgrade a belief when it’s necessary.

He’s aware that he’s the creator of his society. There’s a major difference between the two. Sapiens is mainly unconscious and unconscious of his unconsciousness.

Conscious is mainly conscious and conscious of his unconsciousness. 

Eduardo: There’s this vivid example of Plato’s cave. The cave has gotten a lot bigger over the years. There’s a lot more shadows in it that we can perceive as reality. We seem to have more and more awareness, but it still is the cave.

Is this what you characterize as dysfunctional cognition? 

Benjamin: One of the community dysfunction that we have is this confusion between the relative and the absolute. If we truly realize our place in the universe, we realize that we are always relative. There’s no objectivity.

So once we realized that we are being asked to be a little bit more humble [00:30:00] and to not think that, because we have, for example, a book that we consider holy, we have a universal truth because we’ve been able to make some measures and get some data, we have some kind of objectivity. Here we are being called to embrace a reality that is far beyond what we can perceive and to remain individually and collectively humble about our perception and open to aspects of our reality that we may have not acknowledged or interpreted well until now.

To achieve the sustainable transition, we are asked for profound change to reinvent ourselves.

And we won’t reinvent ourselves if we don’t have the knowledge needed and the courage to deconstruct our all beliefs. Cause Very often part of the strengths of the Plato caves or of the cognitive cage in which we are stuck is that we are very often identified with our beliefs.

So for example, if I was to be very religious for me to deconstruct my [00:31:00] religion, I would see it as a threat for my existence, which is actually completely untrue. It’s simply a change of my belief and evolution of my beliefs. There’s no rational threat. It’s actually an evolutionary step if I do that.

I think Here there’s a major evolutionary step for the human species which has the power to resolve a lot of conflict. And to allow us to take a major step forward in term of knowledge, because we will simply realize that the beliefs and the perspective that we opposed to one another until now are actually complementary. But they can only be brought together if we remove the dogmas and the illusions that are attached with them.

Eduardo: As a result of this process of transition and moving into the Homo Conscious, which makes me think of the Overman of Nietzsche, this is ultimately the right path. 

 However, will we have enough time to, to make this transition? 

Benjamin: I understand a lot of people would love to a certainty, but there’s no certainty. Right now [00:32:00] we are playing a game. If we were certain to win the game, it wouldn’t be an interesting game. It would be boring game.

So we are not certain to win this game. The universe is not going to give us that evolution. We’re gonna have to go for it. And that’s conscious evolution we’re speaking about. It’s not something that’s going to happen automatically. We’re going to have to consciously seek it.

So I don’t know if we’re going to win or if we’re going to lose. The game is on, if we don’t play it, we will lose it. 

Eduardo: What’s advice for people creating companies, now? 

Benjamin: I would say if you create a company, just be very aware that you are just not creating a company.

You’re also shaping your future identity. Because that company is gonna determine the way you think, how you present yourself to the world, how you behave. And so be very mindful and concerned about who you want to become in the first place, and then be very mindful and concerned about how is this person that you want to become compatible with [00:33:00] a sustainable human species?

And so the sustainable transition requires all type of solutions. 

See which one resonates for you, which one is really talking to your heart and allowing you to become that best version of your authentic self.

Eduardo: When you’re creating something, expand the boundaries of your creation in the concept So, okay, the call to action really is think who you’re gonna become as an entrepreneur or as an investor supporting that company? And also what impact is that company having or what impact are you having on others? 

So couple more questions regarding how can someone engage with New World Together?

Benjamin: So right now I’m working in groups. I’m also working one on one with people who are taking my online programs. So you can get in touch with me through our website newworldtogether.com. 

Eduardo: Are you [00:34:00] ready for the rapid five? 

Benjamin: Yeah, sure. Let’s go. 

Eduardo: all right. Benjamin, top author or book. 

Benjamin: uh, Well, one that I wanna read right now is The Myth of Normal from Gabor Maté, who’s bringing a lot of lights on the interconnection between our unresolved traumas, our collective addictions and our current system of society.

Eduardo: What climate leader do you look up to or 

inspires you?

Benjamin: I don’t understand the climate leader thing. I think we suffer from climate tunnel vision. We need less climate leader and we need more people with a systemic and global approach.

Eduardo: Does anybody fit the bill right now? 

Benjamin: I have some people who inspire me. Gabor Maté is one of them. There’s Arthur Keller in France, the systemic thinking. There is Thomas Hübl with collective trauma awareness and collective trauma healing. 

Eduardo: All right.

So if you had a magic wand, what will be one thing you will change or problem you’ll fix today?

Benjamin: Nothing at all, because I think all the problems that we are having are there as challenges for us to overcome, to become more conscious of the species.

Eduardo: Who do you think we [00:35:00] need to have in the podcast?

Benjamin: Arthur Keller, Thomas Hübl, Gabor Maté. Definitely those people. I think they need more voice. 

Eduardo: I think we answered the fifth one a little bit earlier, but do you think we’ll make it? 

Benjamin: Game on! 

Eduardo: Game on. Alright Benjamin. Thank you very much for joining us today. 

Benjamin: Thank you. Thank you very much for having me Eduardo. And I hope this was insightful for you and for your community.